[Gudo]

I post here because the future of the game is in potentially serious peril, and GPGnet is no longer a place where concerns can be expressed.

This morning, SoS created a thread expressing that everyone who expresses criticism towards GPG or supcom in any way that SoS finds displeasurable is subject to banning.

To quote... "You who are here only to start and jump on every negative bandwagon you can are going to find yourselves without an account here; you'll need to entertain yourselves elsewhere.

The actual thread is here GPGnet :: View topic - As a member of the Supcom Community

I responded to that thread later this morning. It was deleted, along with PecosBill's comment, and branded as unproductive trolling. If the knowledge that Pecos has never trolled anyone in his life is not enough for you, I have the ability to reprint mine here.

Frankly SoS, this thread is offensive. Posts should be moderated based on their quality, not based on whether or not the opinions they represent criticize GPG's management of the game or latest patch.

As a dev, you should be thrilled that players (atleast the ones that can do so with reasons, arguments, etc.) care enough about the game to criticize it in the forums in the hopes that you'll fix it. All this thread and your previous comments display is an unproductive bias towards anything GPG does to the game, insinuating that those who disagree with that "anything" are frivolous whiners who are ruining the forums.

Example: I saw you in chat making veiled comments about how Unconq is just a whiner (a Wankey, if you will) who tries to find anything wrong with the game to criticize - this was in response to several people posting link's to his latest thread, "let me explain..." I'm not alone when I say this was probably one of his most accurate, well-explained for a change, lucid posts. People agreed with it who strongly dislike Unc and many of his ideas, yet you've rejected that opinion offhandedly.

Devs should be working hand-in-hand with their entire playerbase to improve and perfect the game. Instead, you condescend to Unconq like he was some kind of noob who has no idea what is wrong with the game, when I think it's common knowledge that devs fail at game - the highest rating among you is what, 1800? The reason you're asking us to wait a week to determine if the mercy is broken is because you need the players' input, though why a set of them has STILL not been offered advance releases of the patch notes to test the game for you, I do not know.

My point is, dismissing players offhandedly based on the opinions they represent, even threatening to ban them, is a shamefully poor way to conduct business, especially given the relationship between player and dev in Supcom. My own thread on what I feel is wrong with the unit was locked after a day, and it was every bit as long and atleast as lucid as _PINK's, while his thread was applauded by you simply because he doesn't think the mercy is OP.

You should be equally open to all opinions that are productive about the game if you care about its progress at all, not threatening to silence them. If the mercy is any indication of how GPG beta tests its units, you need to be as open as possible to criticism by the time FA launches. This kind of behavior from a dev (who is incredibly noob compared to top players) is a stronger deterrent from playing this game than an imbalanced metagame.

Unfortunately, this post is critical so I may well be in line to be banned, or to have it deleted. Ironic. Hopefully some people will see it before that happens.

SoS's response can be seen on page 4, where he calls the post "negative vitriol" posted by a "troll." Clearly I was trolling, which can be seen by the frequent use of "QQ Lrn2play n00b kthxbye."

Much to my surprise, several people echoed him and condemned me and Pecos as trolls. I suppose it's worth it to get on GPG's good side now, since your account may depend on it.

I also received a private message from SoS today. He wrote, "Your post in my thread shows you just don't get it. Not only is your post completely negative, but its also a personal attack and your comments bout unconq are simply untrue."

It seems like SoS has had power too long. Or perhaps I am just a troll trying to bring down the game by writing 600 word essays on why the mercy is imba. One way or another, if this is allowed to happen, we had best hope that FA comes with as *few* balance issues as the perfect mercy, because there is no longer a place for players to express what corrections the game needs. Only a power-driven dev who lacks the IQ to understand my vocabulary or Unconq's explanation of balance.

Supcom's lifespan might turn out to be a lot shorter than was previously expected

[Miktor]

Understood what you said in the post but that it makes supcom's life shorter, ain't making sense.(Almost) Everything else was correct

[RoA-Radio]

tbh, I understand SoS although I don't completely agree with deleting your post. They release 3 new units and after some hours people say "T2 Bombers are useless and Mercy is sooo OP", then they write long essays about it instead of giving the unit just a few days or 1-2 Weeks time to see if they really are what the first impression was. If we didnt had TML-4 in the beginning and it was patched in later, or Ghetto Gunships guess what would have happened? long essays about how this units breaks the game a 4 hours after release. Everyone do me one favour: play more with the new units instead of writing long theoretical essays after 2 or 3 games.
SoS is angry about this prejudice and hey he is only human and might have overreacted a bit but so did you when you wrote :

I think it's common knowledge that devs fail at game - the highest rating among you is what, 1800? ... its simply not true, they have a better understanding of the game then most 2300+ players, including unconquerable with his overgeneralized statements.

After only testing the bombers and mercy 2 days I can already say that the bombers are fine and the mercy seems to be fine vs land and air, only the splash might be a bit too high and energy cost a bit too low . And Carrier shouldnt be able to build them.
I love that map control becomes more important now because forward aa and earlier scouting is worth a lot vs mercies so you don't need as much aa as if turtling

[Miktor]

Originally Posted by RoA-Radio

tbh, I understand SoS although I don't completely agree with deleting your post. They release 3 new units and after some hours people say "T2 Bombers are useless and Mercy is sooo OP", then they write long essays about it instead of giving the unit just a few days or 1-2 Weeks time to see if they really are what the first impression was. If we didnt had TML-4 in the beginning and it was patched in later, or Ghetto Gunships guess what would have happened? long essays about how this units breaks the game a 4 hours after release. Everyone do me one favour: play more with the new units instead of writing long theoretical essays after 2 or 3 games.
SoS is angry about this prejudice and hey he is only human and might have overreacted a bit but so did you when you wrote :

I think it's common knowledge that devs fail at game - the highest rating among you is what, 1800? ... its simply not true, they have a better understanding of the game then most 2300+ players, including unconquerable with his overgeneralized statements.

After only testing the bombers and mercy 2 days I can already say that the bombers are fine and the mercy seems to be fine vs land and air, only the splash might be a bit too high and energy cost a bit too low . And Carrier shouldnt be able to build them.
I love that map control becomes more important now because forward aa and earlier scouting is worth a lot vs mercies so you don't need as much aa as if turtling

And one over powered thing you can't deny about mercy too is that it kills a Czar on 4 mercys or less And a soulripper on 6 mercys or more.That is overpowered but can be easily fixed. But yeah, other than that, give it at least a week...

[Gudo]

I understand where you're coming from TBO. I'm not sure when SoS displayed some understanding of the game, and I've frequently heard GPG employees asking noob questions in chat, but that's entirely beside the point of my original post and this post as well.

Originally Posted by RoA-Radio

SoS is angry about this prejudice and hey he is only human and might have overreacted a bit but so did you when you wrote

This is much closer to the point I was making, ironically. Complaints, criticism, and even insults about a unit shouldn't be capable of causing prejudice against a dev! If there is a problem with the unit, he should want to hear about it. If the unit is good, he should want to hear about it. If I (or any other of the chronically negative people he references) truly though supcom sucked, why the hell would we be on the forums, spending time writing about unit balance and how to improve the game?

but the message he delivers is clear, and this should answer Miktor's question as well. Criticism that is voiced in terms that do not include trolling (and seriously, look up what trolling is, read some of RDon's posts about Strategy or brent_w's L2P posts and it should be very very clear that my post above is no example of it, and Pecos! Pecos is inhumanly polite in every one of his posts, even when dealing with noobs. Anyone who has seen the forums a tenth as much as SoS should have knows this. Trolling is not required to jeopardize an account anymore. It seems that criticism of unit balance is in and of itself now a reason to be banned.

I post because I think SoS's power trip (and the conclusion 1 sentence up from this that results from it) is in serious danger of preventing legitimate criticism from reaching people. Pecos! If the new mass fab nerf in FA is not a result of his economic rants, it very well could be. But his post was deleted and branded as trolling. If no negative feedback is allowed to be given, FA will surely ruin the game, given how 1 imba unit can seriously skew gameplay in and of itself.

P.S. I appreciate the comments but please keep this thread free of mercy debate, the fact that this debate can no longer occur in the GPG forums is the intended focus, not the debate itself

[Ryzol]

I've read gudo's other threads/posts and while he may be a bit harsher than he needs to he is by no means a troll. You can also tell from reading that thread that PecosBill's post was also deleted. This is something I was quite surprised about! Now granted I do not know what he posted, but if his post was anything even vaguely resembling the bulk of his posts, then it was informative and noninflammatory, which is the opposite of trolling. Unconq is also not a troll (most of the time ) and those long lengthy posts of his were not bitch-fits. They were insightful critiques about SupCom's flaws. Without valid critique and criticism a game can never improve.

Because of this, I am very upset with SoS's behavior. While I understand that as a person it must be difficult to be criticized so soon after creating something that you hope people will enjoy, his moderation decisions are poorly made. I feel that he moderates too much based on his emotional reaction and without taking the time to really digest what is said. Now obviously when someone posts "FUCK U GPG URTEHSUXXORS ___________ BrEAKz gAME LRN2PLYKTHXBAI" there isn't anything to digest, that message contains no content and is clearly trolling/flaming.

However, when a player takes the time to write a lengthy post with proper spelling and grammar about a problem that they feel undermines SupComm's quality they are doing the complete opposite of trolling. For someone to be a troll they can't just be offensive or inflammatory, they also have to be wrong. It isn't trolling when you have a valid criticism!

While I can sympathize with SoS, he is not demonstrating the self-restraint and even handedness that a moderator should. He should develop some emotional control or he will drive away contributors and stop SupComm from reaching its potential. I think we can already see the effects of his poor moderation considering gudo is forced to post this here and not on the official forums.

[BattleMoose]

I agree with TBO, in that I think the mercy is mostly fine, with only small nerfing requried, (like a slight speed nerf might do wonders imo, make aa&ints slightly more effective against it)

Also I agree with SOS, they have done alot of work on the game, and gave us FREE UNITS, thats almost unprecedented, only happened before with TA. The fact that the just got instant bashed and so many complaints about it, must have made them feel very unappreciated, and it isnt cool.

While, thre was alot of hype, and even I expected "more" from the patch, we really should be appreciative about teh new units, and not bash them so much, before we even play with them.

They have also been very accomodating regarding people criticiznig their work on the forums, only really acting now against it, because its gone too far. (For quite awhile now actually)

So seriouslly, instead of bashing the developers the whole time, lets throw them some appreciation.

[True]

Hasn´t this happened before? I recall a thread here on SCL where GPGNet forums sensored a IMO sensible thread that critisised GPG. Can´t remember what it was about though.

Tbh all this just sounds sad begging, "please praise us :<" with added "OR ELSE!". SoS should just start a thread called "Things you like about us devs/Supcom" if he wants to hear how good of a job they´ve done. People ( Especially when it comes to men) tend to notice/speak up about the bad things because the good stuff is really something to be taken granted. Which is fine IMO, since praising doesn´t really serve any other purpose than boosting egos. Dickwads who only say "This sux" without any reasoning or proof don´t usually deserve to be even noticed. Ignore them and move along. Threathening to ban people who say negative things shows a lack of character, develop (Pun intented) yourself a thicker skin.

You could say that i´m being too harsh, but i´m from Finland, the land where we wrestle polarbears, eat ice and men never speak.

[Poita_]

I agree with TBO, in that I think the mercy is mostly fine, with only small nerfing requried, (like a slight speed nerf might do wonders imo, make aa&ints slightly more effective against it)

Also I agree with SOS, they have done alot of work on the game, and gave us FREE UNITS, thats almost unprecedented, only happened before with TA. The fact that the just got instant bashed and so many complaints about it, must have made them feel very unappreciated, and it isnt cool.

While, thre was alot of hype, and even I expected "more" from the patch, we really should be appreciative about teh new units, and not bash them so much, before we even play with them.

They have also been very accomodating regarding people criticiznig their work on the forums, only really acting now against it, because its gone too far. (For quite awhile now actually)

So seriouslly, instead of bashing the developers the whole time, lets throw them some appreciation.

Well we would throw them appreciation if they deserved it. At the moment they are acting like EA; they ignore constant balance suggestions from top players and instead think that adding some more content will fix things. Yeah, new units are nice but that's not going to make the game good.

In case some of you don't know, GPG actually allowed a lot of the top players to become patch balance testers. In one patch they allowed us to play the patch before hand and determine whether or not it was balanced and offer suggestions. GPG were really good about it and listened to a lot of comments and the resulting patch was a real big step in the right direction.

The patch balance testers are still there. One of the main reasons I am angry is because they didn't let us test those new units. Within moments, just about any top player could tell that the Mercy would cause trouble and quite frankly, several aspects about the Mercy (eg. being able to attack air units) just shows that GPG aren't very good at making a balanced game on their own. It is instantly obvious to anyone with any experience playing the game that 3000 damage to an air unit is going to cause trouble. Now Soul Rippers and Czar are completely and utterly useless against an Aeon player. This is just complete incompetence on their part and it really makes me question the strength of their balance team. The volunteer balance team would've gladly tested those units for them for free and we would almost certainly have a balanced Mercy from day 1. At the very least it certainly would not be able to attack air units.

The second thing that annoys me is SoS's very defensive stance on the balance of the game as outlined in the OP. Unconquerable and I were chatting with him on GPGNet and I was seriously worried about some of the things he was saying. Unfortunately I can't quote anything since I can't remember exact words but he was literally just ignoring everything Unconquerable and I said. Ironically, he has jumped on the "hate elitist players who just want the game to be like Starcraft" bandwagon. I find it quite insulting that we get ignored and flamed so much when ALL WE WANT is to have a balanced fun game. We do not want to turn it into Starcraft, we do not want it to be a micro-fest, we do not want the game to lose its appeal for casual players. We just want the game to be playable at a competitive level and we consistently offer advice on how to get it to that stage and it consistently gets ignored. For example, fabricators have been criticized from day one and they have yet to see the slightest bit of attention. I've lost count of the number of threads I've made regarding fabricator balance. Thankfully, Tyo tells us that they (along with engineers) will be fixed for FA. The problem is that I have real doubts about their ability to get these things in a balanced state. I don't mean to be offensive but the balance testers - AFAIK - are simply not top players and I don't believe they fully understand the problem. I am in the process of making - yet another - fabricator balance thread and hopefully what I suggest (as long as other top players agree) will get included in FA. Btw, I will be posting it in a private balance testers forum because if I post it in the general public forums then I'll inevitably get flamed and told to "go back to playing Starcraft" despite the fact that I've never played the game.

I think that FA is really Sup Com's last chance (if even that) at getting some serious attention. Just now it's full of casual players that just want to see more and more units instead of more and more balance. They will come, get bored and go whereas competitive players will stick with it and spawn more and more competition and more and more competitive players. Hopefully, other competitive gamers will try out FA and hopefully GPG will get it right by listening to the people that want to make it a good game.

[BattleMoose]

EEEEEK

Just for the record, I was one of the patch balance testers, and I also feel that, that process was great for the game.

Additionally, there are quite a few of us who believe the mercy to not be overpowered, and only advocate slight nerfing. (turn rates and speed)

Unfortunatly, i think the mercy has spoilt the game for alot of the casual players. :-( But for 1v1 or even 2v2, I find the mercy to be well balanced, for a new unit. I'm sure they have their reasons for not including top players in the balance this time, and there are quite a few I can think of.

And just btw, we werent so perfect either. We missed how badly Cybran t2 land was OP, I'm not sure if anyone picked that up, but it passed me by.

As for attackign air units, that was a blunder and will be fixed, god knows when tho.

I think they are going to try very hard to get FA correctly balanced, and hopefully we will be included in that process.

But seriously, the mercy is not as OP as you think it are. Also this new threat from the air, compensates for cbryan t2 land dominatino, poor uef tho.